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Eidein's avatar

On the subject of "why not more violence?", two comments.

The first, which I'm sure is basically a talking point for this crowd, is that this is an extremely valuable question to ask, and the fact of it has deep insight if you think about it. We all like to point out how many guns there are in America: the left says "oh no" and the right says "those are rookie numbers". But the fact is, we have like 10x the guns in this country but we do not have 10x the murder rates of other countries. In fact, one of my favourite accidental redpills that Scott Alexander dropped, is that if you exclude the super violent inner city ghettos as outliers (a reasonable thing to do if you want a stat representative of anyone who _doesn't_ live in them), the US gun violence rate is slightly less (but within margin of error of) Canada's. The presence of hundreds of millions of extra guns WITHOUT hundreds of millions of extra violent crimes is pretty suggestive evidence _against_ guns causing violence

The second is that I think that pointing to some kind of American exceptionalism culture-wise misses a pretty important and under-discussed point, which is that a) the US can police violence extremely effectively _when it wants to_; and b) the uncertainty of anarcho-tyranny is a force multiplier for the tyrant.

We live in a surveillance state. The government runs facial ID databases, FBI probably already knows the guy's full identity, already reading his emails, already wiretapped his cell phone, etc. They _will_ eventually get him, they _will_ eventually find him guilty, they _will_ eventually imprison him. They might even give him the Bradley Manning treatment in prison (which I am sincerely convinced is an actual thing and not a joke or a conspiracy theory; after all, finding a discreet agent for this exact purpose was a published MKULTRA goal).

Will they get every murderer? No, because they don't want to, and it's not worth their time. But can they get any specific assassin, if they really want to? ABSOLUTELY. And any rational agent will be weighing this in their risk calculations. I think this provides an extremely powerful disincentive to this kind of overt violence.

For supporting evidence, consider how frequently the government overtly leverages this exact thing for the enforcement of lower level things, especially civil offenses. There's probably a 50 year backlog on health inspections at restaurants, eg., but the risk of failing one _and being forced out of business_ encourages compliance more than meticulously auditing every restaurant once a year and fining $1000 for each failure ever would.

And that incentive is going to apply _more_ at higher levels than at lower ones. Is this going to stop some street thug from street thugging? No, he _doesn't matter_ to the government, in fact, some parts of the government find his street thugging to be instrumentally useful.

But it will _absolutely_ stop CEO assassin wars. As higher profile people, they're more likely to attract the government's ire. And as wealthy, high status people, they have more to lose. Even if the government can only muster the resources to stop, say, five of these a year, when 100 CEOs _want_ to assassinate their rivals, they're going to think "do I risk the 5% chance that I'm the one they Make An Example Of?" and decide to just do nefarious underhanded business tactics instead that only risk civil liability

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Eidein's avatar

Final comment, I've probably deployed this canned rant on OSD before

> When people debate whether to make laws “tougher”, the discussion usually assumes that there’s a see-saw, and you just get to pick its position. You can push down on one side to make crime lower, and on the other side you’ll get tougher laws. Or you push the law side of the see-saw down to make laws looser (whatever that means in context) and you’ll get more crime.

> But that’s not actually a good description of reality. For any given set of laws, there are all sorts of other factors that will massively increase or decrease crime rates without changing the law. And that means that laws-on-the-books probably aren’t a major factor for determining actual, on-the-ground levels of violence. Here’s a neighborhood-level map of murders in Baltimore:

When people debate government policy they are always always always talking about Unicorn Governance (https://fee.org/articles/unicorn-governance/), not real governance, and as an engineer who has to care about implementation details, this grinds my gears so hard.

Sometimes gun people bring this up as a talking point, in the vein of: "oh, California, your 100 gun laws didn't stop this crime but I'm sure the 101st one would definitely fix everything". People understand this intuitively when they get enough distance from the issue. But for some reason, people will always talk about whether the law should or shouldn't be 'tougher', without bothering to think through any of the practical considerations of what that would imply (or if it's even possible).

For a potentially controversial example, the most recent instance of this that is annoying me is the talk around Trump deporting 11 million illegals. My liberal friends are horrified at this, my conservative friends are salivating at this. And all I can think is, the last time a leader tried to forcibly deport millions of people who didn't want to leave, he failed, and then he tried a holocaust, and he failed at that too. If even LITERALLY HITLER couldn't accomplish this, how do you think Trump will? Besides, the Jewish people in Nazi Germany didn't have 5 rifles in every household, Americans do. Mass deportations? Good luck with that". It _doesn't matter_ what the law says. It _doesn't matter_ what policy changes. It _doesn't matter_ what executive order he signs. It is just impossible, on a sheer practical logistical level, to deport 11 million people, many of whom have access to arms, who don't want to leave. You lack the physical manpower, you lack the logistical capacity, you lack the money, hell, you probably lack the rifles. There's about 300k armed soldiers in the US military, many of whom are occupied with existing deployments. If even _one percent_ of those illegals take up arms, they're fielding an army just as big as what the actual US army could spare to oppose them.

In a twist of supreme irony, this is actually a perfect example of the second amendment _working as intended_.

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